A steering saga...

[duncan-uk]

So are we cured? As I said at the outset it was a subtle feeling but one that made the drive incredibly wearing over a distance.

But the answer is yes, I think it is, on Monday I had cause to drive 250+ miles to Norfolk and back on a mix of motorway, A road and rural roads and I would say yes it drives as it should.

It wasn’t a spirited drive but required briskness at times but I wasn’t distracted by the chassis and steering particularly.

I still have a gripe as to the EPS feel as well as the 19” wheels and tyres but suggest its simply that as a chassis it falls into the modern category of firm  = sporty which I’m not sure I like particularly.

I would say too it is not particularly supple or cosseting but that’s not a criticism I level solely at BMW or indeed the car itself and is exacerbated by potholed and rutted roads. HGV ruts are a bug bear which lead to all sorts of wander in many cars particularly with bigger wheels.

It is what it is…

To conclude then the steering column was probably not needed but for completeness I’m happy I changed it. The software update was probably a placebo effect but for whatever reason the rack was definitely at fault. A deep pot hole maybe or a hard kerbing at some point but something was awry which marred my first 5k with the car.

I’m confident it’s not been in an accident but having worked on the car it feels far less robust than previous BMWs. On par with the Z4M but maybe lighter still which makes me think the e39 was the last of the built to a standard and not to a price car. Neither is a patch on the e28/ e24 in terms of engineering but then I suppose that’s progress.

Is the F11 for me then? On paper it ticks all boxes, for personal reasons diesel was out and for doggy / family reasons an estate/ touring is needed. I plan to have some cosmetics attended too and live with it for 6 months to see if it grows on me now that it’s as it should be but there are a number of things I’m yet to warm too, which I will document elsewhere, which may just be me but niggle.

Just call me Goldilocks…

[Percha]

Its a good read, but I come to the conclusion that maybe you should have gone for at least VDC option and probably Luxury/SE spec rather than MSport?

I have the exact same car but with 30d engine, no VDC and RFT's. I have got used to slight crashiness on potholed/rough roads but never had steering feel you are mentioning. When on smooth dual carriageways and motorways its a real pleasure to drive, although I have never gone more than say 200miles in one trip I have to admit.

We had an E87 and then E91 before that, and for me this car is leaps and bounds ahead of that! I did feel a big difference in steering between E91 and F11, the E91 always felt very heavy on steering (which I assume means less correction needed, maybe?) but I prefer the lighter feel to the EPS on the F11, with the E91 at low speed you were fighting it too much for my liking.

I love mine, 3.5 yrs on!

Edited November 10, 2022 by Percha

[duncan-uk]

Maybe though wanting the 535i limits your choices and spec you can find and i'm happy with the e39 in sport guise but there was definitely an issue with the rack so maybe now its done after some miles it will grow on me.

As i say its longer drives where it was particularly apparant, the test will be our next run to Newcastle at xmas i suspect.

[Steve VH]

A very good read, and the steering fault cured by fitting a new electric pas unit, you think!

I would certainly find having to constantly make steering corrections on a motorway cruise very tiring, and that something somewhere was adrift. Just my two cents, is the same electric unit fitted to all F10/60 models across the range. Are the pas settings altered by the weight of the car, will be quite a difference weight wise between a 520 and a 535, presumably somewhere on the system there is an electronic sensing switch, to tell  when a steering input has been made and assistance needed, this would be done by the spool valves on hydraulic pas systems.

Is it worth starting another post asking all F10, and (G30 owners if they have the same system) for their views on the steering wheel feedback on their cars. Did any magazine roadtest reports flag this up when the cars were new.

The response from the steering and suspension is just about the most important sense that you have on how well your car is doing on the road.

 

[duncan-uk]

Yes there was a definite physical fault in the rack when i finally got it up in the air and very agressivly rocked the wheel you could feel a clonk but across the rack nothing so one can only assume its the meshing of the pinion in the rack but it was not enough for the car to feel "normal" on average roads and shorter trips. Certain members of this parish thought i was being fussy...

The part seems to be the same across the range. Being electric one assumes the ecu programming deals with levels of assistance being as you can "weight" up the steering with sports mode which must simply alter the level of assistance.

I wonder (and this isn't levelled at the F10/11 exclusivley) whether there is some lag with EPS i.e. you move the wheel and the system senses the movement, processes and responds as it must be a feedback loop type system, where as a hydraulic rack is "primed" and this reacts instantainioulsy?

A bit like traditional filamemt brake light bubs going on Vs LED you can see how quick they light up.

Can't say i've read many road tests had assumed i'd driven enough BMWs and would be more of the same.

[Steve VH]

Road test on a 530d, read the integral active steering column, feel free to delete after reading m8.

 

[duncan-uk]

Interesting - sounds like what i feel is what they are like. Obviously buying used limits the options you can have.

[Counter Of Beans]

On 10/11/2022 at 07:34, Percha said:

Its a good read, but I come to the conclusion that maybe you should have gone for at least VDC option and probably Luxury/SE spec rather than MSport?

I have the exact same car but with 30d engine, no VDC and RFT's. I have got used to slight crashiness on potholed/rough roads but never had steering feel you are mentioning. When on smooth dual carriageways and motorways its a real pleasure to drive, although I have never gone more than say 200miles in one trip I have to admit.

We had an E87 and then E91 before that, and for me this car is leaps and bounds ahead of that! I did feel a big difference in steering between E91 and F11, the E91 always felt very heavy on steering (which I assume means less correction needed, maybe?) but I prefer the lighter feel to the EPS on the F11, with the E91 at low speed you were fighting it too much for my liking.

I love mine, 3.5 yrs on!

Similar here; mine is a 535d Luxury saloon with Adaptive Drive and Comfort seats, 18 inch wheels currently on Cinturato RFT's.  It is incredibly comfy over all but the worst surfaces, and at motorway speeds it really wafts along.  As for the steering, at low speeds it is fine, but at high speeds (say 75 mph +) it is a trifle vague with the car in Comfort Plus mode.  Not enough to annoy me however, since I didn't expect sports car feedback.  The steering on my 997 Porsche 911, now that really was precise and lovely, but a 5 series is completely different of course.  Anyway, think I'll leave the steering rack well alone!

[duncan-uk]

Just to clarify i changed the rack as i could detect play and had ruled everything else out, not on a whim.

[duncan-uk]

So call me pedantic or that i find a car to "steery" I was still not convinced the car was right. For me the issue is not when lots of steering is needed, around town say, but becomes wearisome on longer journeys which is primarlily what this car is for.

Last run up north I was still concious that I felt I was having to steer to react to movement in the chassis - driving in a contraflow between an HGV and a concrete barrier the car felt huge and my butt was clenched.

I don't think its at the rear, I recall with the e39 with tired subframe bushes I could steer the car from the rear on the throttle - the tail was wagging the dog.

I think now the issue is i'm reacting to play and so obvious culprits are the lower tension arms.

I'm a bit miffed that having purchased at 51K it might be so worn as to affect the drive but have discussed with Andrew & Alpinaman at length and seems it's par for the course with our roads, heavy cars, big wheels and RFTs but there you go.

Arms are fitted and suggest a good drive is the next step - as i say around town its a non issue.

I tried to be patient but after whacking my chin and knowing they weren't going back on one part needed telling it was coming off!

[Andrew]

9 hours ago, duncan-uk said:

I tried to be patient but after whacking my chin and knowing they weren't going back on one part needed telling it was coming off!

Now who’s ham-fisted. 😂

Let us know how it feels after a drive. 
 

Even with my winters on, I could loose a Corsa VXR that tried it on in the twisty bits on local roads. 

[duncan-uk]

Used with care and precision 🤪

[duncan-uk]

Trouble as you know is the nut comes free so far but seems to get tight. Despite plenty of penetrating fluid etc I decided that I had probably a cm of shank visible and good access for a cutting disc. Knowing they weren’t going back in saved me time and effort. 
 

Yes a little inelegant but effective  

 

[Andrew]

52 minutes ago, duncan-uk said:

Trouble as you know is the nut comes free so far but seems to get tight. Despite plenty of penetrating fluid etc I decided that I had probably a cm of shank visible and good access for a cutting disc. Knowing they weren’t going back in saved me time and effort. 
 

Yes a little inelegant but effective  

 

Yup, been there, done that, got the T-shirt.  

[duncan-uk]

I think you almost need a dedicated T50 with fixed bend rather than ratchet - i found if i used a bigger ratchet it was harder to hold square in the shank so you risk rounding it, but of course you get less leverage. All made much harder laying on your back under the car of course.

I Imagine on a 2-post lift with better access it would be easier and with less bodily contortions!

Other observations E spanners would be advantagious as you have - I only have sockets, they do the job but if you need to add adapters 3/8 to half etc can run out of space.

Again a long breaker bar 1m+ is handy but the 3/4" one can be unweildy in some situations and i was better served with my 1/2" and using the jack handle as a sleeve to extend.

[Dimsum]

Enjoyed reading this thread! Can’t complain re mine. 535d with VDC running on non-run flat 18 inch Goodyear F1 AS 6’s. 
 

On the motorway Comfort + requires more steering input than I like so I generally leave it in Comfort. Sport setting firms things up nicely on the twisty bits. Getting rid of the run flats was the best thing I’ve done. The ride is now so much smoother and steering feel is improved too.

[Andrew]

20 hours ago, duncan-uk said:

 

Other observations E spanners would be advantagious as you have - I only have sockets, they do the job but if you need to add adapters 3/8 to half etc can run out of space.

 

Definitely!

Makes things much easier on the wishbone bolt with the steering gear in the way.

I bought a set as both you and I will need them to swap out the oil cooler and oil filter housing gaskets that always sweat before they leak on the N55.

[duncan-uk]

10 hours ago, Dimsum said:

Enjoyed reading this thread! Can’t complain re mine. 535d with VDC running on non-run flat 18 inch Goodyear F1 AS 6’s. 
 

On the motorway Comfort + requires more steering input than I like so I generally leave it in Comfort. Sport setting firms things up nicely on the twisty bits. Getting rid of the run flats was the best thing I’ve done. The ride is now so much smoother and steering feel is improved too.

So this is my rub. I've had numerous BMW's and other marques but even though I don't expect the feedback of a 205 GTi I am very dissapointed with the F11. If this is normal then i'm clearly abnormal.

E28's with a steering box felt better and I had issues with them but i was confident in them.

I dont have VDC but I've got new non RFT, its been aligned twice, I've changed the rack which has improved matters hugely...yet...

As far as i know my car has only been through BMW, history is clean, parts I took off were BMW marked, I'm told they all break springs and when they do that TIS suggests my top  mounts will have torx bolts yet mine are OE nuts and seemingly untouched so i don't suspect meddling by independents.

My suspicion is they are susceptible to wear and its me that's paying. Having bought a car with 50K I expected better to be honest.

After my trip to Lyon and on to the south of france last summer I could happily have burnt it.... 1800 miles of hell, I've done one way non stop in the e39 530d and was tired but the car couldn't be faulted.

Genuinely i would take the e39 over the F11 at this point....

[Andrew]

16 minutes ago, duncan-uk said:

seemingly untouched so i don't suspect meddling by independents.

No other signs of meddling?  Like bolts in the wrong orientation?

If its had things changed "by the book" in theory nuts and bolts should be replaced, which of course BMW do religiously under warranty.....

BMW changed the bolts on the caliper cradles from Hex to Torx and the wheel bearings from Spline to Torx Plus.

 

[duncan-uk]

I hear what you've say but all that bolt could prove, if anything, is that arm might have been changed on both sides but if so it was with genuine BMW parts and in terms of weathering they all looked the same so despite your cynicism nothing i've seen or in the files suggests its had a surreptitious suspension rebuild and frankly if its had some genuine new parts at somepoint thats no bad thing is it.

You're making assumptions that arent supported. Think how much you've changed on yours through simple wear and tear and you're happy yours hasn't been "meddled" with i think the quality just isn't there and we know how wear creeps up on you becauses it happens over time.

 

[Andrew]

Be keen to know your thoughts on if you plan on getting a new four wheel alignment following the arm replacement?

I'm sure BMW say to do it, but there is nothing to adjust other than track rods, which we've not touched.

I've not had an alignment done since before I bought it.

[duncan-uk]

I wasn't at this point unless it feels off, if you didn't i'm sure its probably not needed!

[Andy5150]

Duncan, this makes for some fantastic reading and truly sets the standard in how to hook readers in with quite a saga. I must say, I wish my pockets were as deep as yours and my mechanical skills in line with yours and Andrew’s to be able to do the work yourself.

I have a 520d Touring Luxury - 2015 on 18 RFTs. Mine was bough on 72k with FBMWSH and has just ticked over 100k. I thought I’d chime in as mine has never felt especially stable at speed either and is quite dreadful on bumpy roads - I’m in Buckinghamshire too and the B/C roads around here are truly awful. The lateral body control is pretty poor but every time I’ve had it in ramps in the garage they tell me it’s all good and no obvious bushing or damper wear either. I was however told at my last full service that the brake reaction bushes (lower wishbones?) were wearing which is causing, I think, a bit of pulsating through the brake pedal and steering wheel on high speed deceleration.

the conclusion I’ve come to is that whilst the F11 is a fabulous car and still feels pretty modern to me, it’s heavy and extremely sensitive to road and tyre combinations. When I first got the car it was in Bridgestones front and Pirelli’s rear and tramlined almost dangerously. I swapped them for 4 Goodyears which solved the tram lining instantly… just before Xmas my rear Goodyears were finally shot so I replaced them with some nice Hankooks on offer at the time and lo and behold the tramlining is back again although thankfully not like before. 
 

I guess I don’t have anything constructive to add in terms of helping you get to the bottom of your own issues (although I think you’ve sorted it now, right?) but though I’d give some insights into my own experience with steering feel and stability that are all hallmarks of sensitivity in the setup of these cars.

 

cheers

Andy

[Andrew]

11 hours ago, Andy5150 said:

the conclusion I’ve come to is that whilst the F11 is a fabulous car and still feels pretty modern to me, it’s heavy and extremely sensitive to road and tyre combinations.

 

When I first had bought mine, the front Michelins while still legal were a bit thin in tread and wandered on poor road surfaces. New Michelins and that disappeared.

There is one section of poor road near me, its undulating and laid on a peat bog.  It was re-surfaced 5 years ago and the machinery left a washboard effect as are other local roads re-surfaced at the same time.  It's only ever on this particular section of a specific road and again only when shall we say, overtaking traffic, that I notice I need to input a bit more into the steering than usual.

Motorways and at speed mine is planted, this morning I could rely on it to out manoeuvre at tractor and car that refused to overtake with the utmost precision and feel. But I have split new front suspension too so I could throw it in a corner knowing it'll come out again.

 

[duncan-uk]

13 hours ago, Andy5150 said:

Duncan, this makes for some fantastic reading and truly sets the standard in how to hook readers in with quite a saga. I must say, I wish my pockets were as deep as yours and my mechanical skills in line with yours and Andrew’s to be able to do the work yourself.

I have a 520d Touring Luxury - 2015 on 18 RFTs. Mine was bough on 72k with FBMWSH and has just ticked over 100k. I thought I’d chime in as mine has never felt especially stable at speed either and is quite dreadful on bumpy roads - I’m in Buckinghamshire too and the B/C roads around here are truly awful. The lateral body control is pretty poor but every time I’ve had it in ramps in the garage they tell me it’s all good and no obvious bushing or damper wear either. I was however told at my last full service that the brake reaction bushes (lower wishbones?) were wearing which is causing, I think, a bit of pulsating through the brake pedal and steering wheel on high speed deceleration.

the conclusion I’ve come to is that whilst the F11 is a fabulous car and still feels pretty modern to me, it’s heavy and extremely sensitive to road and tyre combinations. When I first got the car it was in Bridgestones front and Pirelli’s rear and tramlined almost dangerously. I swapped them for 4 Goodyears which solved the tram lining instantly… just before Xmas my rear Goodyears were finally shot so I replaced them with some nice Hankooks on offer at the time and lo and behold the tramlining is back again although thankfully not like before. 
 

I guess I don’t have anything constructive to add in terms of helping you get to the bottom of your own issues (although I think you’ve sorted it now, right?) but though I’d give some insights into my own experience with steering feel and stability that are all hallmarks of sensitivity in the setup of these cars.

 

cheers

Andy

Thanks Andy, i suspect you are right that its little bits of wear that add up and big wheels, heavy car, poor roads just don't. That said if that is the case for me to experience that at 51k is pretty poor i'd say. I'm told racks can be fragile which clearly they are so i just don't think newer BMWs are as well engineered - built to a price and not a specification.

Not long after I had it I needed to do Newcastle and back in a day 500+ miles. I’ve done it a few times in my Mums Audi A1, the E28 etc and it’s a long drive but I was ok. In the f11 I was toast. Same as my trip to Lyonlast summer, i've done it many times in other cars (e36 M3, e46, e39) and all good. In F11 I could have cried...

Basically (though hoping lower arms will have solved) what I get is a feeling like I’m constantly correcting the front end ie. It’s not holding its line. So if I steer on the motorway I feel like I have to add or back off lock or when in roadworks between a truck and a concrete block I clench as it feels like threading a needle. It feels like i can never quite aim the car in the right place.

It’s subtle and becomes very wearing on a long journey. Around town or an hour trip or a varied road say the effort isn’t noted and it seems “ok” to drive because youre "busy". Its not really speed related but obviously the higher the speed the "clenchier" it can feel. 

Pretty sure its not the rear as when the e39 needed subframe bushes i could change lanes with the throttle 😂

This is the same on or off the power, coasting, cruising etc though I think i can feel it can move about under braking a little so again points to the arms.

Obviously drive a rutted road or lorry tracks on the motorway and the car climbs about but all cars on big tyres do. This is more about feeling I can never accurately place it on a straight road but it’s something that becomes tiring on longer journeys and of course you then fixate on a dull drive like a bit of food stuck in your tooth.

It was much much worse before the rack but still (to my mind) not quite right. Makes the car feel every bit of its width as I just doesn’t seem to be able to position it accurately. As I say it’s very subtle but I don’t believe it’s me. Both my e49 and e39 inspire confidence in a way the f11 doesn’t or shall I say hope didn’t. Will know this weekend.