A vehicle that is good to drive?

[Steve VH]

As well as an E39/E28, 528i, M5, E34 535i, E12, 525, not all at the same time, but all good to drive.

I have also driven thousands in a  Scania 113, Volvo FH12, B10m, Mercedes Tourismo, if you know, you know.

Tell me you favorite drives, car or otherwise, and why.

[duncan-uk]

I think its more than just the car but the time and the place. I've had epic drives in my mini 1100 or Nova SR neither brillinat cars particularly but i was young and carefree.

The one i still miss is my 205 GTi

[Guest]

EF8 CRX VTi, EG6 SiR-S, Integra DC2 and a curve ball; MG ZT 190

 

The ZT was an ok car; more interesting than Fords at that time etc and later in the 2000s could be had for dirt cheap money

 

But a great chassis, very stiff and great for a bit of large saloon B road hooning. I bought one back in late 2016 to see me over winter before buying another E39 530i and it was a great car and the last manual car I owned! 

[Steve VH]

I agree it is often more than just the car, but the time, place, and the road, some superb driving roads both UK, and abroad,  nowadays any traffic free road is a good drive, and yes for sheer driving involvement, it needs to be a manual, even if they are a Pita in stop start traffic.

[BobA]

19 hours ago, Steve VH said:

yes for sheer driving involvement, it needs to be a manual

Having a G31 (auto) I’m not sure I agree. I’d have agreed a few years ago but I’d say that manual mode using the paddles in the modern auto box gives the best of all worlds. You don’t see many F1s with stick shifts.

[Steve VH]

Unlike F1's, a road car doesn't have to be lighting quick, for an involving drive, just quick enough will do.

[BobA]

9 hours ago, Steve VH said:

Unlike F1's, a road car doesn't have to be lighting quick, for an involving drive, just quick enough will do.

Of course (though it helps 😉), but what do you feel makes a manual car more involving than using the paddles? I’ve not felt that at all, in fact I’d say the paddles make for slicker shifts.

[Steve VH]

8 hours ago, BobA said:

Of course (though it helps 😉), but what do you feel makes a manual car more involving than using the paddles? I’ve not felt that at all, in fact I’d say the paddles make for slicker shifts.

I was probably comparing with an old automatic transmission system which has a fluid flywheel (torque converter) when you pressed the accelerator pedal you lossed the immediacy you get with a manual through torque converter slip. The more modern SMG transmissions with a clutch plate are probably much better, I don't know not having driven one.

[duncan-uk]

On 25/09/2022 at 21:02, BobA said:

Having a G31 (auto) I’m not sure I agree. I’d have agreed a few years ago but I’d say that manual mode using the paddles in the modern auto box gives the best of all worlds. You don’t see many F1s with stick shifts.

I think the 8 speed is too many gears, when i drive mine i feel like a minicabber racing to get into top.

Currently considering a fleet realignment and an manual will be in the mix probably NA too.

 

[Steve VH]

1 hour ago, duncan-uk said:

I think the 8 speed is too many gears, when i drive mine i feel like a minicabber racing to get into top.

Currently considering a fleet realignment and an manual will be in the mix probably NA too.

 

Torque and acceleration are much more linear, and therefore much more drivable in a NA engined car.

Moving the F11 on already Duncan?

[duncan-uk]

Maybe, not decided, really not as impressed as i'd hoped.

[Steve VH]

It's a shame, because I would like to try an F10, at some stage maybe a 530d or 530i, but not to keep as a long term purchase. I fail to see how a 8 speed automatic is a significant improvement over a 5 speed automatic.

[duncan-uk]

Economy, TBH it has enough torque to pull it but feels like it's always changing up - its smooth but if you want a bit of engine braking with the paddles you need to drop it down about 4 gears! Top 3 seem to be overdrive gears.

There are times with a manual i yearn for auto but on balance i think i'm still a manual guy at heart.

If i was doing the M25 miles i once was its a no brainer but i dont so....

[norseman]

On 26/09/2022 at 17:54, Steve VH said:

I was probably comparing with an old automatic transmission system which has a fluid flywheel (torque converter) when you pressed the accelerator pedal you lossed the immediacy you get with a manual through torque converter slip. The more modern SMG transmissions with a clutch plate are probably much better, I don't know not having driven one.

One small point Steve, the old fluid flywheel was not the same as a torque converter (that utilised a one-way stator for torque multiplication) hence the earlier device's lack of efficiency.

Sorry to be picky 🙄

[Steve VH]

On 30/09/2022 at 09:34, norseman said:

One small point Steve, the old fluid flywheel was not the same as a torque converter (that utilised a one-way stator for torque multiplication) hence the earlier device's lack of efficiency.

Sorry to be picky 🙄

 You are correct in that a TC is more efficient than a fluid flywheel, due to the addition of a stator however both use the principle of pressurised hydraulic fluid to create a driving force, the impeller will always be rotating more than the turbine, hence the slip, it has to, to soften the gear changes, hence the need for having a TC lock up clutch when the higher gears, and speeds are reached.

[Dbcrd]

Classic mini clubman estate in the mid 80s modified with a 100bhp 1293 engine and many Cooper S parts.  Negative camber front arms so no understeer  Unreliable but incredible feel.  Rocket powered roller skate.  Didn't come on cam until 3000 rpm.  Huge fun.  Surprised I survived in hindsight.  

1983 Audi 200 turbo 5 speed manual late 80s.  Felt amazing at the time.

Rover 827 fastback Vitesse.  Felt like it cornered on rails - amazing but poor build quality.  Tony Pond held the IOM TT circuit lap time record for years in one so they weren't that bad.

Mercedes 280se 3.5 1972.  Wafted along but felt like driving a boat at times.  Loved it though.

After that all older BMWs.

E21 316 - solid and pleasant.  323i - tail happy but enjoyable and nippy.

E28 525e - loved that car enough said.

E34 525ise touring- great.

E39 530i Sport touring last 12 years.  Probably the all round best of the lot.  Can't seem to be able to part with it.

[740mick]

This is my new weekly office and can honestly say the best i,ve ever driven,superb driveline,plenty of power,all on air front,back and cab and executive car quality inside.

 

[Sharkfan]

This is absolutely fabulous to drive, and apparently quite nice to be driven round in...

[Sharkfan]

This is absolutely fabulous to drive, and apparently quite nice to be driven round in...

[Steve VH]

Very nice unit Mick, is it me, or do the latest DAF, and Iveco look very  similar to the Scania on a casual glance.

[740mick]

57 minutes ago, Steve VH said:

Very nice unit Mick, is it me, or do the latest DAF, and Iveco look very  similar to the Scania on a casual glance.

You,re right Steve they do,i suppose its all down to aerodynamics now more than it ever was.

 

[Humour]

On 26/09/2022 at 09:19, BobA said:

Of course (though it helps 😉), but what do you feel makes a manual car more involving than using the paddles? I’ve not felt that at all, in fact I’d say the paddles make for slicker shifts.

Wha makes it more compelling is the challenge as a driver to synchronise the drivetrain as you go and thus balance the chassis. Not an insignificant amount to do when pressing on and using heel and toe for this purpose. The concentration level to get it right is much higher than clicking a button and letting the computer do the rest, and of course it's more involving and for those who can string it all together smoothly and quickly, very very rewarding. Else, can be frustrating, but that's the challenge. 

No argument that technology makes things easier and ultimate pace is quicker because the action itself is quicker, but at an extreme you can compare it to a driver vs a passenger. One is involved, the other, not so much.

For me, Seven, Elise, MX5, E30, E36, Alfa 155.

The jury is still out on the E60. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Humour

[BobA]

Quote

22 hours ago, Humour said:

Wha makes it more compelling is the challenge as a driver to synchronise the drivetrain as you go and thus balance the chassis.….

Agreed, but just because something is somehow more difficult to do well doesn’t to me make it more ‘involving’. You could just as well argue that synchromesh, ABS, power steering and myriad other advances in technology all somehow make driving less involving and to some no doubt they do. Each to their own as usual and a few years ago I’d have agreed that manual control was better and I preferred it then too - my argument then was that I controlled the car better that way. Things change though and now I think that an automatic box with manual control over gear selection is more involving and better. To me the objective (the challenge) is to be able to drive the car safely, speedily, comfortably and with least stress on its components and I don’t feel that trying to keep up in areas which the electronics does better is a useful challenge. 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by BobA

[Steve VH]

Both Humour, and Bob both make valid, and compelling arguments for, and against manual gearboxed cars, a car, any car that is good to drive is probably more than the sum of its parts.

One that will give you a shed load of fun on the back roads, could be very tiresome on a 12 hour motorway drive to the South of France.

[Humour]

On 06/11/2022 at 13:11, Steve VH said:

Both Humour, and Bob both make valid, and compelling arguments for, and against manual gearboxed cars, a car, any car that is good to drive is probably more than the sum of its parts.

One that will give you a shed load of fun on the back roads, could be very tiresome on a 12 hour motorway drive to the South of France.

Touché. 

Perhaps, the question is not defined well enough, since it can be interpreted in different ways without defining the application. 

to drive to the shops..... auto

to drive on track or for fun..... Manual

Hum