Best upgraded display

[NM20]

I am considering moving from a Jaguar XJ to a BMW 5 series F10, whilst I wait for electric cars drop in price and increasing range.

The infotainment system on the F10 looks very outdated and therefore when buying a new one, I would want to get the best possible infotainment, including Apple CarPlay. What would people recommend as there is a variety of options out there?
 

Do you get a new fitted display that replace the old one in the space (I assume they can replace the smaller 8” display?) or do you get one of the new screens that is fitted in front of the old screen. These one look like something on the newer five series model - suggestions gratefully welcome. 

[Kopfjaeger]

This area/topic can be a minefield, depending on what you really want.

If you're solely concerned about screen size, you have two choices, OEM or aftermarket.

If you want OEM, and currently have an 8.8" screen, you will most likely need to change your head unit (HU), as they come in several versions and basic models,won't support 10.25" screens. Note max resolution of 10.24" screens is 1280x480.

For larger screens, you need to go after market. These can be up to 12.3" and support display resolutions up to 1920x720. 10.25" screens retrofit into the dash. Larger screens stick out like on newer models.

Irrespective of the screen size you opt for  note that the idrive software doesn't display bigger than 1280x480 on a screen 1920x720. The higher resolution only comes into play for Car play or Android auto.

You also need to consider the OS. You have CIC, NBT (Idrive 4), EVO (Idrive 5&6) and MGU (Idrive 7), in chronological order. NBT is pretty much 3G, with EVO and beyond supporting 4G.

It's possible to upgrade from CIC to NBT and NBT to EVO, although not from BMW directly. MGU is a complete architure and hardware change and you can't as far as I know upgrade from EVO or lower to MGU.

Aftermarket upgrades allow you to change the appearance to emulate ID5, 6 or 7 (not sure about 7).

From about 2017/18 BMW provided Apple Carplay support. I don't think Android auto has official BMW support.

For Carplay/Android auto, it can be delivered by aftermarket, via screen upgrades, or MMI boxes. The MMI boxes are concealed.

As a general rule, the more expensive aftermarket solutions offer wired and wireless car play and Android Auto. Cheaper versions only offer wired connectivity.

3G to 4G is a different matter, but you're not interested in that? If so, that's another post. Note, 3G connectivity is going to reduce significantly over next decade.

If you're looking to upgrade from an 8" to 10.25" screen the OEM route budget on £1k-£1.5k, depending on options.

If you're looking to go aftermarket, you can pay anywhere between £200-£800. Cheaper to go Aliexpress, than Ebay, for similar kit. Aliexpress has more choice.

Note, if you have an F10 and go for after market 10.25", you will need to notch the dashboard slightly to fit the screen.

The wiring can be fiddly, depending on how fussy you are and features you want.

I have an Andream NBT MMI box and a Wondefoo 1920x720 screen that I have semi installed and got operational.

I have found it an absolute bugger to get the modified wiring loom installed. The space in the F07 and F10? Dash is really tight. The aggravation versus the what I get for it isn't worth it for me atm.

[NM20]

Wow - so detailed, thank you! 
 

I am looking at a 2016 plate, so ID4, I would want a bigger screen, with touch capability and a good microphone (I make a lot of calls from the car).

I definitely would be going aftermarket seen something for around £600. Hopefully that will be sufficient.

I definitely would be going aftermarket seen something for around £600. Hopefully that will be sufficient.

I’m not sure what you mean about 3G versus 4G I thought the 3G or 4G would come from my phone why would I need it in the car?

 

[Kopfjaeger]

3G or 4G is connectivity, for in car updates for OEM nav updates, traffic info, etc. Up to NBT, this is typically 3G. EVO and beyond 4G.

For aftermarket, you should only consider 4G and latest specs, e.g. Android 12/13, IPS 1920×720 displays, on 6GB RAM+128GB or 8/256 combinations.

The largest screen that will fit recessed in the dash is 10.25" Larger 12.3" screens sit outside the dash...the current, but daft fashion.

A 12.3" screen won't be better than a 10.25" screen. They all have the same pixel count at 1920x720. I haven't seen any higher resolutions yet. Bigger screen, bigger pixels/ pixel spacing. If you're eyesight isn't brilliant go for 12.3", otherwise stick with 10.25".

Do you really want touch screen? If you're taller than 5'10, probably not an issue, but less than that unless you have guerrilla arms, you won't reach the LHS of the screen comfortably.

If you're only going to use it to link to software on the phone, you don't need to worry about GPS. The aftermarket screens come with remote GPS sensors that are supposed to be windscreen mounted. These are NAFF!. Better to use a a FAKRA y cable and use the GPS installed in the F10. If your HU has GPS at the unit. It's a simple mod in the dash. If your HU doesn't have a GPS connection (blue connector  bottom RHS of HU when looking from back), then it's on your ATM in the boot or rear roof. That is more aggravation to run a splitter cable from the dash area to the rear.....I al depends how integrated you want to go and whether you will DIY, or pay for someone to do it.

It's more fun, but daunting DIY....

£600 from UK suppliers won't get you a top spec. 

I've attached examples from Aliexpress for in dash and external dash options, which are less than £300, before shipping and tax. Some suppliers deal with the taxes, but if they don't the uplift will be 20% + 2%, typically.

The stuff available in the UK is Chinese manufactured, but 'branded'.  Most of this kit comes from a few manufacturers in China. Each brand, might have a subtle tweak, but they all come from the same source, more than likely. Better Chinese brands, will usually have better QA, hence more expensive. Wondefoo and Navifly have been around for a while. There are loads of others. When I did my research, I opted for Wondefoo.....Don't worry, there is no branding on the front🤣🤣.

Before retrofitting the wiring, look at it closely, to see how well made it is and for any nicks or gaps in insulation. Fiddly, but better than finding out later if you get a short and fire! An unofficial guide is the quality of the quad lock connectors on the patch loom. If they're nearly identical to the OEM, you'll likely have good wiring too. If it looks cheap and nasty, the quality isn't there, but you can DIY this aspect to better quality, if you wish.

I'm not linked to, or promoting any particular brand. Going the Aliexpress route is the most risky, but cheapest. 

Be warned that glare can be an issue, especially if you have a panoramic roof. This is why you should go IPS screen as a minimum, as opposed to TFT, or god forbid TFN. And, in my opinion, in dash, as opposed to out of the dash

[NM20]

Thanks.

So the first image you sent me would just replace the screen that is already in the dash? However, I would need another HU (the small black box) to improve the software to EVO, but they have rubbish GPS or do I just use the HU that is already there? 

Your advice is really helping - thank you.
 

 

[Kopfjaeger]

The aftermarket screen replacements skin the OEM OS, I think. I never used mine on the road, but had the choice of ID5 or ID6 from the menus. The user interface isn't important to me, its what the kit dies, but each to their own.

Full EVO has hardware changes apart from the HU. I have NBT with a high HU that has GPS at the HU, with a TCB (3G) in the boot area. The EVO hardware has new HUs, that use an ATM module that replaces the TCB and more likely 4G connectivity. The EVO HUs have an additional OABR connector that connects to the ATM unit. You can't connect an NBT HU to an ATM. The wiring is completely incompatible.

You can upgrade to EVO from NBT by replacing the HU and TCB with a new HU and ATM. However there is a coding issue to consider. If you just want the EVO interface and aren't interested in OEM connectivity, you can just upgrade the head unit with a GPS option. This costs between £400 -£700 depending on whether you want DAB as well and hardware versions up to 5.1

However if you want the OEM connectivity, it can be difficult, depending on your model.

The ATM module contains an e-sim and the module is coded to the vehicle VIN and CANNOT be changed. You can change VIN numbers on HUs, but not ATMs.

BMW code the ATM when it's ordered. If ATMs aren't standard for your car, they won't accept the order. If you buy a 'new' ATM from any other source it will be useless, as 3rd parties, to my knowledge can't code them. The e-sim number and VIN are stored on separate BMW servers, so no likely way of getting your VIN added to them, even if you could hack the ATM pcb.

The work around for this is to purchase a used ATM that has been activated and pair this up with the matching HU or another HU that has the VIN changed to match the ATM. To use the connected services, you need to take out a subscription for the new VIN, not your car's actual VIN. I think you also need an emulator to screen the VINs, so the rest of the car doesn't get upset because VINs don't match. I think it's also necessary to prevent some BMW security protocols from triggering and bricking some modules.

If BMW would sell an ATM and code for the purchaser's VIN irrespective of whether it was originally available would allow a lot of BMW owners to upgrade their cars to 4G connectivity. This is sustainable and mean that the cars electronics could match the life expectancy of the vehicle. 4G is unlikely to be switched off till 2040 at the earliest.

[NM20]

True, I am not bothered by the look either, I just want to use my phone, Spotify and Waze directly on the screen.

If I am wanting to do this, is it the screen only that I need?

There are some acronyms that I don’t recognise, such as ATM and TCB?

[Kopfjaeger]

The aftermarket screens are basically android tablets. You can't just buy the screen aspect.

The TCB (Telecommunication Communication Box)and ATMs are basically modems.

If you're F10 is built after 2016/17, it's more likely to have an ATM. Pre 2016, more likely to be TCB.

If you only have an 8" screen, your new aftermarket screen will only display at the native IBM resolution. You'll only get the 1920x720 for the Carplay and Android auto apps.

If you decide to get a BMW screen ( aka CID - central information display), the 10.25" will only work with 'high' versions of HU, so you're likely to be needing a screen and an HU, so aftermarket is more cost effective.

Note that if you don't have a connected TCB or ATM, you will lose the SOS call functionality. Maybe not important to you, but worth noting. Changing the screen doesn't affect the TCB, unless of course you replace it with an ATM.

If you install an ATM, but don't take out a subscription service, I think the SOS functionality is retained (if you have 7S9 and 6AP in your original VO)  but you would need to check this. As your F10 is of the same model range as my F07, ATMs weren't fitted, but I could be wrong.

You can check by looking at what is installed in your car, or using RealOEM for your VIN to see if ATMs are listed as opposed to TCBs.

When 3G is switched off, all cars with 3G connectivity (e.g. BMWs with TCBs) will lose that feature with no likely replacement.

[NM20]

Thanks, that really clears things up.

I have just realised that I mean 6.5” (I think that is the smaller screen size?). I would want to upgrade that one with the 10” version.

 

[Kopfjaeger]

My mistake. I can't remember the smaller, basic screen size, but the larger 'high' version is the 10.25". Brand new these screens from BMW are about £2k. 2nd hand you can pay from £100 to over £600+ depending on age and location.

If you go down this route (OEM) be warned that the bezels on the screens can vary. A screen from an F07 won't fit an F10 or vice versa without a bezel change. I think the F10 and F11 are interchangeable.

If you do upgrade to an EVO HU and get an old 10.25" CID (non touch), you'll need a new HSD cable to replace the existing one, as the newer screens work on a lower voltage.

If you opt for an OEM upgrade of HU, you'll likely need to upgrade the idrive controller too, unless you already have the touch version. If your F10 has the small basic screen, I doubt, you would have the touch controller? The basic ones have a smaller, curved dial, whereas the touch controllers are larger.

Aftermarket screens don't need any coding  being largely plug and play, but if you change HUs from basic to high, there is likely to be some coding/VO changes, e.g. SA609 for navigation, etc.

If you want to avoid the DIY route, you can pay for someone do to do this. Costs can vary, but will be from about £1200 upwards for parts and labour, but should be less than £2K. The upgrade can be done in a day or less, depending on who is doing it and you have all the parts required to complete the job.🙄😂

OEM parts wise, you're looking at about £1k-£1.5k for a package of HU, screen, and idrive controller on Ebay. That doesn't include an ATM ( between £200 and £450,?) or wiring. Wiring looms looms will be about £200. If you get a non touch 10.25" CID, these vary between about £130 (avoid for obvious reasons) to about £600. Idrive controllers can be had from  £60-£80.

I've bought a lot of my upgrade parts for my BMW from Ebay and I've not had any problems...some of it has been installed for nearly 4 years.

One final note of caution, be careful when you unplug the FAKRA connections on the back of your HU, they can be really stiff and easy to break.

[NM20]

Thanks - I really do owe you a drink, you have gone above and beyond here. 
 

I will be getting someone to install it - I can build a PC from scratch, but don’t fancy doing this.

 

I will keep an eye on getting one with the larger Idrive controller, they are the ones with the slightly bigger diameter?

 

I haven’t bought the car yet, so will make sure I get the right one. Unless you think I should go for a G30?

[Kopfjaeger]

Happy to help. It's what this forum is for. Sharing knowledge and learning,  well for me anyway.

Correct, a larger diameter controller.

Choosing a car is a personal choice. A G30 will be more modern than an F10 and likely more expensive, but should last longer, but if you change cars often, does it matter?

Cars registered after April 17 also have higher road tax rates for 1st 5 years if costing more than £40K at registration.

I'm a first time BMW owner and had my F07N for nearly 4 years. I love it, but not sure I'll buy another one.

We all have our likes and dislikes. For me, having the screen sticking out of the dashboard is an awful design choice and I would never willing buy a car with one. So I would go F10, over G30. But I wouldn't buy either, as they are saloons. I like hatchbacks. I'd prefer an AMG GT63  or Panermera to an G32,G15 or G16....now I'm rambling and going off topic.

My best advice, if money is no object, go with what YOU like, as you'll be driving it after all. We're not sheep, we're individuals..🤣🤣

[NM20]

I need something bigger for the family.....

Last question, I promise. Are there any installers you would recommend? I live in Yorkshire, but happy to travel a couple of hours to get it done.

 

[Kopfjaeger]

Understood so an estate or MPV...

If you aren't wedded to a brand, you could do worse than get a Mitsubishi Grandis.  They're cheaper than BMWs and fairly bullet proof. I had the 7 seat version with a 4 pot 2.4l petrol engine.  I had mine for 13 years.  It didn't drive like  bus either. Diesel versions are available and they use VW engines. The petrol version had a load of torque and a nice high driving position. Alternatives are VW Sharans, etc.

I've not used any 3rd parties yet for hardware installations, only for some coding works.

I know of a couple of 3rd parties that install CIC/ NBT to EVO upgrades, etc.

One is based in Southampton and active on Ebay. The other is based in Dartford and offers a mobile service.

There must be capable individuals North of the South East, but being London based, I wouldn't know.

PM me if you want details, as I don't want to break rules by advertising😁

 

[NM20]

I meant bigger than a hatchback! I spend half my life on the M62 and will be coming from an XJ (I bought one when I was 32 - just to bring the average age of drivers of Jags into the mid 50's!!!)

Am I breaking the rules in sharing this:

https://www.veehive.co.uk/product-page/bmw-5-series-f10-f11-veehive-android-screen-w-apple-carplay

or this:

https://www.veehive.co.uk/product-page/bmw-nbt-veehive-apple-carplay-android-auto-integration-kit

 

Would either be good? If I got a bigger screen F10 I would be happy with the screen size, so assume i just need the HU?

[Kopfjaeger]

The 10.25" screen replacement for £400+ is only 4GB+64GB, with an old processor. Innovation-wise, that's more than two years old. You're paying a premium (100%) for someone else importing the kit from China.

The back of the unit is identical to my Wondefoo unit, that's been in its box for 18 months🤣🤣.

The MMI box will give you Car play/Android Auto, but won't upgrade the screen resolution.

If you're cautious, go with the more expensive option. 

I don't like to see people ripped off, if there is an opportunity to save money.

I've no experience of that particular vendor, but when I've queried the technical specs of similar kit from others, for the price paid, they don't want to know. Some boast that they commission kit with better quality components, but don't provide proof.

It's a common business to buy tech from China and rebadge it with a 'brand' with a hefty mark-up.

If you look on Aliexpress (my photos came from there) you will see a far higher spec option for the same price, most likely for the same kit.

Maybe some of the members here can advise of their experiences with aftermarket screens.

[NM20]

Thankyou.

I thought with it being Android 11 it was ok, I appreciated the RAM is only 4gb and not 6 go as you pointed out.

If the box will give me CarPlay, I may just go for that. I will also give them a ring and see if I import the screen, will they fit it for me.

I don’t mind paying £200 for it to be fitted. 

[Steve VH]

Applecar play? What is that? I thought çars were made for driving, silly me.

[NM20]

On 26/06/2023 at 02:09, Kopfjaeger said:

Happy to help. It's what this forum is for. Sharing knowledge and learning,  well for me anyway.

Correct, a larger diameter controller.

Choosing a car is a personal choice. A G30 will be more modern than an F10 and likely more expensive, but should last longer, but if you change cars often, does it matter?

Cars registered after April 17 also have higher road tax rates for 1st 5 years if costing more than £40K at registration.

I'm a first time BMW owner and had my F07N for nearly 4 years. I love it, but not sure I'll buy another one.

We all have our likes and dislikes. For me, having the screen sticking out of the dashboard is an awful design choice and I would never willing buy a car with one. So I would go F10, over G30. But I wouldn't buy either, as they are saloons. I like hatchbacks. I'd prefer an AMG GT63  or Panermera to an G32,G15 or G16....now I'm rambling and going off topic.

My best advice, if money is no object, go with what YOU like, as you'll be driving it after all. We're not sheep, we're individuals..🤣🤣

So I got my ‘new’ car yesterday. Went with the full intention of buying a 530d 2016 plate, came back with a 730LD 2015 plate. It has the full screen iDrive and the large controller. 
 

I assume one of the screens you recommended about will work. If so, I will buy one on Ali Express.

[Kopfjaeger]

I'm guessing your BMW is a G11? As far as I can tell, these have displays that sit on top of, not in the dashboard.

As it is a 7 series from 2015, it might have apple car play anyway, or might be able to be upgraded (firmware update?) from BMW?

Do you know what Idrive version it has? If it is EVO, it's more likely to have carplay than if it's NBT.

You'll need to research an aftermarket screen for your model No.

I doubt someone who sells aftermarket screens will fit one that they don't supply, as their profit margin is minimised.

If you don't want to go the DIY route, better to go to someone who does upgrades to BMW. There are a lot about, so you might find someone local to you.

If the wiring is straightforward (is it ever?) someone competent should do it in a couple of hours.

I'm a fussy bugger and not keen on trailing cables etc, or non OEM looking upgrades. If you don't care, the upgrade should be straightforward.

If you do care, then you will need to plan ahead, if you go DIY or otherwise....

If you don't want to use the 'grotty' supplied gps receiver with the aftermarket screen, you can get a GPS Fakra splitter cable for about £20 that allows you to use your existing BMW GPS receiver with the new screen.

The aftermarket wifi transceiver can be mounted inside the dashboard, so shouldn't be visible.

The associated USB connectors are a little more tricky. I bought a USB socket to mount in the centre console to avoid having a lead with a socket on the end dangling somewhere....

Then there is the 'microphone'. You'll need to modify the new quadlock interface loom if you want to use the existing microphone with the aftermarket version, if you don't wire on the new supplied version. (I doubt the new version is 7 series quality...)

The final hurdle is the new wiring harness. It plugs into the quad lock plug from the car and then the new quad lock loom plugs into the HU, so the aftermarket screen piggyback into the existing system.

In my F07, for example, there is very little room in the dash around the existing components and the new quadlock loom introduces a 5cmx5cmx5cm (2" in old money) plastic cube (additional quadlock connection) on a short semi flexible loom. In my experience the new loom is too short to allow the quadlock connector to tuck out of the way. You may not have that problem. If it is a problem, then you'll need to build a custom loom. I've tried online, but the longest is about 30cm, including the quadlock connectors, which isn't much longer than the supplied version. A 60cm version would be better. There are 40 pins on each connector, of which you have two, plus the spliced wiring from the aftermarket screen to work with, not forgetting 24m of wiring and 80 terminations to be made to create the new loom. I doubt that would be included in a £200 installation fee. (I will make my own loom, once motivated🤣🤣, I've bought the terminals and a crimper, just haven't sourced the wiring yet..)

I did a quick scan of Aliexpress and they do offer aftermarket screens for the G11. The attached is an example, not a recommendation.

Youtube has videos of taking the screen out and the HIU, if you choose the DIY route.

Good luck....I'm looking forward to the before and after photos!

 

[Kopfjaeger]

Further to my response, I went digging and discovered that you can get a 60cm quadlock loom for 52 pin, not 40 pin, but it's far easier to disassemble the 40 wires you need instead of making up 40 new ones.

I've also attached examples of the USB socket and GPS splitter.

[NM20]

That is really helpful, especially the information about the Fakra cable, which you mentioned previously, but I didn't quite pick up on.

It is an F01, so I think is NBT (non-Evo version). 

I don't fancy have a cheap  microphone, so that is something to look for. I also didn't realise the USB in the centre console would become redundant? Can you send a picture of where you have your USB?

[Kopfjaeger]

I don't have a picture of the USB installation in the centre console, but I've attached a screenshot of the part (item 6) that I cut an aperture in to mount the USB port I bought for the purpose.

You can also see the Fakra GPS pig tail cable and the USB-Fakra connector I got to OEM the aftermarket installation.

I've also attached a photo of the Andream MMI NBT kit and the Wondefoo aftermarket NBT screen kit.

Also, you don't always get the correct wiring loom. With the MMI kit, I received the wiring loom for an F30  which differs from my F07. So had to modify the loom myself, to get it working. If there's room  the MMI box can be located with your HU or in the glove box, where the CD changer is usually located, if fitted.

In my honest opinion the aftermarket microphone and speakers look awful, so I'm in the process of modifying the wiring to avoid using them, as our cars have working microphones and speakers already.

As I discovered, getting a hi res screen, doesn't upgrade the OEM displays. They display natively at 1280×480, any Idrive related info. They only run at 1920x720, when using Car play  android auto, screen mirroring, etc.

The way they work, you're either using the idrive or the aftermarket software. They don't work in parallel. You access or exit the 'OEM' mode or aftermarket mode via the idrive controller.

Your F01 and my F07 have some commonality, in terms of parts and layout.

There is a lot of superfluous wiring for cameras and DVRs that you might not want. Some newer versions also offer 360 degree views (OEM equivalent to VO 5DL)

One reason for an aftermarket screen upgrade for me, was to increase the resolution, but that only works with non Idrive stuff  so worth noting.

Given that our screens are dash recessed, touch screen interaction has limited use, especially if you're not tall.

The default menu layout has some functionality on the LHS of the display. Great for LHD, not for RHD, unless you're tall.

With the modern trend for external displays (as in not dash recessed) the aftermarket versions bring them closer to reach, so touch screen access is less of an issue. However,  glare will be more of an issue, especially if you have a,sunroof or panoramic roof.

[NM20]

I’ve now got to the point where I need to choose between an MMI box and a new screen.

The new screen is £620 and the MMI box is £420. Both installed.

The screen would be 8GB +128 GB with android 12. However, I am leaning towards the MMI box, because as you say, I don’t have a gorilla arms and I’m not sure I can reach the touchscreen. My only reason for getting the touchscreen is the CarPlay looks quite complicated to control with the IDrive controller. I like the idea of being able to scroll up and down and choose different songs using my finger instead of using the idrive wheel. 

If you were going again, what would you go for?

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by NM20

[skyjawa]

That seems a lot for the screen fitted.  I paid about 290 for mine from Ali Express for 8core 8gb and 128gb storage. Took me a day to fit including a reverse camera at the same time….