Brake judder

[F10-65]

Hello Everybody

Nice to be back, I've missed you all.

Soon after I bought my F10 I had Borg and Beck discs and pads fitted by a mobile mechanic which were fine for about 6000 miles.  Then they started to give me judder under braking.  I was advised I'd bought tin foil discs which , I guessed, was probably true due to the £600 all round price.  So I bought Brembo discs and pads and fitted them my self.  Again they were OK for about 6k miles and now I'm back to this brake judder again.

I've tried Andrews bedding process (60mph to 10 mph, 10 times) but it won't go away.

I've followed Andrews brake change how to, almost to the letter.  Having looked again now, I didn't grease the contact points on the pads in the calliper, just the rear of the front pad.

Is this my big mistake?

Cheers

Daren

 

 

[Andrew]

Grease the contact points where the pads slide on the cradle, no need to put grease anywhere else.

Did you make sure the hub mating faces were scrupulously clean?

Dirty brake disc face

Hub cleaner tool

Few seconds later.

Wheel mating face before

Wheel mating face after.

If you clean your bearing hub face (ok so that's a new bearing) and rear face of the brake disc too.

 

After 1,000 miles or so after my new brakes I had a very faint vibration that lasted for perhaps a 1,000 miles but disappeared again and is still fine today.

I used genuine parts.

[F10-65]

I did Andrew.  Absolutely spotless.  Wired brushed both faces to within an inch of living

[duncan-uk]

I had a shudder on my e39 that i couldnt get rid of despite utter cleanliness of mating surfaces, checking bushes etc. In the end i uded these guys:

https://skimmydiscs.co.uk/

Worked for me.

[Cadwell Parker]

2 hours ago, F10-65 said:

I've tried Andrews bedding process (60mph to 10 mph, 10 times) but it won't go away

After doing that did you keep the car moving for long enough to allow the brakes to cool?

I've had Brembo discs and pads on my car for ages. I've had the occasional judder under braking but the bedding in process has always cleared it.

[Andrew]

2 hours ago, F10-65 said:

 

I've tried Andrews bedding process (60mph to 10 mph, 10 times) but it won't go away.

 

Wasn’t it @Cadwell Parker that gave a post on bedding in? He was up to some strange (driving) antics on the A75 I recall.  Its something I’ve never done myself on new brakes. But I generally aren’t hard on them anyway, no honestly…..

Ive not long fitted new front pads and discs to my wife’s Kuga and was out in it tonight. All good after following my usual method and a pressure flush of the brake fluid. Noticeable much firmer pedal feel and that’s using febi DOT4LV fluid too. 
 

Just to add, as CP post above, hot brakes do need to cool before parking up otherwise you risk getting a change to the disc surface and gives the sensation of a brake pulse. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Andrew
Brake cooling reference

[Andrew]

Oh and did you replace the caliper retaining spring clip?

 

[Guest]

There's been a thread on Pistonheads about this recently, albeit an E61

 

But, same principles:

 

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=72&t=1996945

 

For me its generally suspension components... worn bushes/links etc and sometimes it's hard to find the issue until the part has been removed!

 

This was my previous F01 730D (shares a lot of the same suspension as the F10/11s etc); suspension parts were replaced before I'd bought the car, but had failed. Couldn't tell until I'd removed the arm! It's passed an MOT the week before with zero issues:

 

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=47&t=1952011&i=80

 

So unfortunately; the suspension needs to be checked thoroughly

 

And brake discs don't warp on road going cars; simply nowhere near enough heat produced to do this. Pad deposits yes, unevenly worn pads yes, generally down to issues from factory / the discs are crap from factory etc...

[Andrew]

43 minutes ago, danb1979 said:

 

And brake discs don't warp on road going cars; simply nowhere near enough heat produced to do this. Pad deposits yes, unevenly worn pads yes, generally down to issues from factory / the discs are crap from factory etc...

^This!

[Percha]

I had brake judder that started a while back, mainly 70mph down to 50mph. I knew my discs were original so cosidering its a 2013 car with 80k on the clock they were due to be changed anyway. I had just had a new tyre front right as that was getting low and can sometimes give funny vibrations if RFT and near to 2mm depth as the structure seems to be lost.

Anyway I went ahead and bought a set of Brembo (2 piece) discs and Pagid pads and sensor. All fitted up and brake judder has now gone and it feels much better on the pedal and positive too. Hope you get it sorted!

[marko530d]

On 08/09/2022 at 14:30, Percha said:

I had brake judder that started a while back, mainly 70mph down to 50mph. I knew my discs were original so cosidering its a 2013 car with 80k on the clock they were due to be changed anyway. I had just had a new tyre front right as that was getting low and can sometimes give funny vibrations if RFT and near to 2mm depth as the structure seems to be lost.

Anyway I went ahead and bought a set of Brembo (2 piece) discs and Pagid pads and sensor. All fitted up and brake judder has now gone and it feels much better on the pedal and positive too. Hope you get it sorted!

Same here got brembo discs and pads from autodoc front and rear.

 

Originally thought it was rears giving wheel wobble but was fronts. 

[F10-65]

Now @Andrew has suggested it, it feels like the front pads need lubricating.

I'll whip them off tonight

[F10-65]

On 07/09/2022 at 20:15, Andrew said:

Oh and did you replace the caliper retaining spring clip?

 

Yes

[F10-65]

I'm still suffering with warped discs

I changed the old discs for new ones, they warped after 6k then i changed those for Brembos, discs and pads, and they've warped after 5k.

Now I find a friend of mine has a 535 with exactly the same issue, he's had original discs changed to Beck and Borg, had those swapped for new ones, then he did Brembos too, now just changed his for the 4th time and put on TSW discs.

I've tried the bedding in process a few times without any difference.

My indy said the discs are clearly warped so what are we doing wrong?

 

[Bavarian Cortina Fan]

Judder in the brake pedal (fronts) or the car (rears)?

[F10-65]

13 minutes ago, Bavarian Cortina Fan said:

Judder in the brake pedal (fronts) or the car (rears)?

In the pedal

[bmwmike]

37 minutes ago, F10-65 said:

 

My indy said the discs are clearly warped so what are we doing wrong?

 

 

Did your indy confirm that warp diagnosis with an actual runout dial indicator or did he just eyeball it as an easy brake job?

No disrespect intended here but for those with multiple occurrences of "warped brakes" have you considered that maybe the common denominator is actually the way the car is being driven and not a component fault? Sitting with hot brakes pressed on at lights etc can lead to hotspots and raised pad deposits. When you come to a stop try after moderate or heavy braking leave it no more than a second or two stopped then move forward a few feet which moves the wheel and disk around, so the pads don't sit in the one spot? 

If they really are running out of true has it been confirmed if the actual disk is at fault or the hub?  

[Bavarian Cortina Fan]

11 minutes ago, bmwmike said:

Did your indy confirm that warp diagnosis with an actual runout dial indicator or did he just eyeball it as an easy brake job?

X2 - and at least you’ve narrowed it down to the front discs

ask the Indy to drive the car to demonstrate the fault, ask them to measure them for evidence of root cause and then ask him to rectify 

is it a German car specialist or just a back street garage? A German specialist should be aware that these cars are particularly sensitive to disc alignment and the cleaning shown above.

If you end up arguing about owner abuse and incorrect bedding in, you’re wasting your time expecting the Indy to fix it. Probably depends upon your relationship with the owner and how you approach them. Raging at them is never gonna end well… 

on car disc skimming is about £50 a corner - of course that’s pretty much the same price as a brand new budget disc, although of course there’s labour on top if you farm out the fitting.

[Munzy]

My 2011 F11 530d has had a slight vibration under medium to firm braking from 50mph+ most of this year.

In the summer I changed the control arms, lower wishbones and hubs, being very careful to preload the bushings and use the correct (TIS) torque settings) and make sure the hub/disc/wheel surfaces were flat and clean, but the vibration was still there and has gotten worse over the past few months.

The front brakes have a good even 4mm on the pads and the discs look ok, I know you need a machine to properly measure this, but they don't look bad yet so I will look elsewhere. The rear pads and discs were done with BMW parts 2 years ago and look good.

I had the front end up for an oil change last week and had a good tug/push at the wheels and arms and there was no noticeable play anywhere.

There is a very, very slight vibration, even on smooth roads, at 70mph so I think my next try will be to get the wheels balanced. I got 4 new tyres a couple of months ago and I just don't trust that the garage spent time properly balancing them - typical tyre fitters: harassed staff rushing around, hanging on wrenches, lifting and dropping cars with very little care - didn't install great confidence as the type of place that spends time to get things spot on when 'close enough' will do... especially for a sensitive, picky b@@@@@@ like me 😉

I used to go to a garage when I had my E91 that had a great guy who was into his BMWs and he would balance wheels properly after telling me the wheels at the time were way out even a though another place had recently done them. As is life he unfortunately moved on.

Can anyone in the Glasgow area recommend a good tyre fitter or wheel refurbisher that will do a proper job in balancing wheels?

(if I get the balancing done and still have the vibration I'll look into replacing the discs and pads and giving the callipers a good going over).

Edited December 26, 2022 by Munzy

[F10-65]

Munzy 

im over my brake issue but the vibration at 70 for me was solved simply by perfect tyre pressure.

@Andrew on here said tyres need to be pumped up first thing in the morning within a mile of starting.  I can spit at my Tesco garage from here.

I have the 19” wheels so 32 in front and 33 in the rears.  I did add an extra psi to all though.

Vibration gone

 

 

[F10-65]

I have the run flat PS4s if it counts for anything

[Munzy]

@F10-65

I recently did the pressures but for such an easy thing to do I’ll check them again - thanks for the idea! 
 

I’ve gone to non runflats but I’ll try the same pressures and see, not sure what I put in before. 
 

[Cadwell Parker]

23 hours ago, Munzy said:

Can anyone in the Glasgow area recommend a good tyre fitter

I'd advise getting a full Road Force balance. It's a more accurate and in depth job than what you generally get from a basic tyre fitters balancing job and made all the difference on my car.

I've been to Autotec at Port Glasgow a couple of times for tyre fitting, alignment and full Road Force Balancing.

https://autotecscotland.co.uk/

They did a good job on the balancing and alignment but I found it was pot luck whether the wheel bolts were correctly torqued up depending on who was doing it so would hesitate to recommend them wholeheartedly.

I've also had alignment done at B & M Centre who seem attentive and knowledgeable on all things BMW but I'm not sure if they have a Road Force balancing machine.

If you fancy a run down the M74 I can recommend a guy I found just south of Carlisle. He has a full Hunter set up and can do alignment and Road Force balancing. I've been to him a few times now with mine and Mrs CPs cars, always been happy with his work and I'll be using him for all my alignment and balancing needs for the foreseeable future. He doesn't rush at stuff and seems to pay attention to the important stuff other tyre fitters seem to be too busy to worry about.  He doesn't have a website as such but let me know if you want his details and I'll pass them on to you.

There's also M. B. Jarvie in Glasgow.

https://mbjarvie.co.uk/wheel-alignment-glasgow/

I haven't used them but they have a good reputation as far as I can gather although may be a little more pricey.

Hope you get to the bottom of the vibration issue.

[Munzy]

Thanks for the great reply and info @Cadwell Parker! 

Appreciate all the choices and details for each. Your man south of Carlisle sounds the best bet - if I'm going for a full Hunter and balance, a wee road trip down the '74 sounds good 🙂 

I put more air into the tyres this morning - non run flats front were 30psi and rear 35psi so quite low. I'm up north at the in-laws just now so the car is full of people and a stuffed boot so went with the numbers on the sill - 39front (2.7bar) and 46(!) (3.2bar) rear. 30 psi was quite low on the front and my thinking is that non runflats have softer walls than runflats so may have been deforming too much under braking. Seems a bit better, not as 'juddery' on a quick A road check but A90 home will be real test.

I've had the car four years next August, had a Hunter alignment done then, so this spring I'm replacing front pads, discs and will get a Hunter and Road Force done too and now I think about it, after doing the control arms etc I'll get new trackrod ends. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Munzy

[Andrew]

On 26/12/2022 at 11:57, Munzy said:

 

Can anyone in the Glasgow area recommend a good tyre fitter or wheel refurbisher that will do a proper job in balancing wheels?

 

Collins Tyre Services Ltd on the Beith Road in Johnstone.  My local trusted tyre fitter who has proper leverless machines and trained techs who actually care about what they do.  Can't recommend them highly enough, family run honest business. 

 

For wheel refurbishment, I'd be going to Powder tech in Kinning Park.  Did my dads F10 wheel far better than the guy who did mine.