What did you do to your E60/61 today?

[DJ Syxx]

Put new wheels on. Pics in my build thread.

[Humour]

Thanks for all the advice guys. 

The car was randomly throwing that error since I got it. When I looked into fixes I learned that there are underseat bypass solutions. When I investigated I saw that a bypass was already installed under the seat, but obviously not working or making a good connection. I thought I had removed the bypass at the time and reverted to the original wiring but evidently I didnt, as I saw the pigtail still plugged in when I looked yesterday. 

I want the thing coded out for sure. I don't care if all airbags deploy if in an accident as I won't ever have a child seat in the front passenger seat. So that's not a risk.

@Gonzo thanks for the kind offer. Let's talk when you have some free time. 

@Tallman85 There are several possible causes for wheel shake, sometimes it's more than one issue as well. At least in my case it was and it took 14 months since purchase to get to the bottom of it. I changed... 1.) wheels and tyres. 2.) discs and pads. 3.) Calipers and carriers (completely refurbed a set of four I purchased for rebuild). 4.) Front lower control arm bushes. 5.) Front Hubs/bearings (the hub was warped on both sides which in turn warped the first new set of front discs within a month of fitting). 6.) Another set of front discs. 

Shaking at a specific speed could be a wheel balance issue, but could also be worn lower control arm bushes, they can resonate at a certain speed more than other speeds, 50-60moh wobble I speculate to be due to those being knackered.

One way to know for sure about disc warping is to use a runout gauge to measure the disc surface. If that test turns out to be true, I would definitely measure the hub faces as well. I learned that lesson the hard way! If discs are not warped, I would change the lower control arms, or fit new bushes in them, what kind is up to you. I fitted Strongflex poly bushes but 80sha road spec ones.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Humour

[Tallman85]

6 hours ago, Humour said:

 

@Tallman85 There are several possible causes for wheel shake, sometimes it's more than one issue as well. At least in my case it was and it took 14 months since purchase to get to the bottom of it. I changed... 1.) wheels and tyres. 2.) discs and pads. 3.) Calipers and carriers (completely refurbed a set of four I purchased for rebuild). 4.) Front lower control arm bushes. 5.) Front Hubs/bearings (the hub was warped on both sides which in turn warped the first new set of front discs within a month of fitting). 6.) Another set of front discs. 

Shaking at a specific speed could be a wheel balance issue, but could also be worn lower control arm bushes, they can resonate at a certain speed more than other speeds, 50-60moh wobble I speculate to be due to those being knackered.

One way to know for sure about disc warping is to use a runout gauge to measure the disc surface. If that test turns out to be true, I would definitely measure the hub faces as well. I learned that lesson the hard way! If discs are not warped, I would change the lower control arms, or fit new bushes in them, what kind is up to you. I fitted Strongflex poly bushes but 80sha road spec ones.

Hi @Humour

Thanks for the info mate;  So I also:

1. Changed Discs and pads

2. Changed new Tires twice and balancing [but suspecting balancing was not done right].

When you said, lower control arms, are you referring to item 1 or 2 in the pic below? I am thinking 2 correct?  and changing bush C/F.  What about D, will that affect the wobble? 

Regarding the hub, how can I tell if it is warped or not? 

Thx.

 

[Ray112]

14 hours ago, Tallman85 said:

Hi @Humour

Thanks for the info mate;  So I also:

1. Changed Discs and pads

2. Changed new Tires twice and balancing [but suspecting balancing was not done right].

When you said, lower control arms, are you referring to item 1 or 2 in the pic below? I am thinking 2 correct?  and changing bush C/F.  What about D, will that affect the wobble? 

Regarding the hub, how can I tell if it is warped or not? 

Thx.

 

It's usually item 1 and failing part is bushing B in diagram. But if bushings are gone, ball joints are not far off, so usually there's no point to replace just part B, but replace whole control arm.

[Tallman85]

33 minutes ago, Ray112 said:

It's usually item 1 and failing part is bushing B in diagram. But if bushings are gone, ball joints are not far off, so usually there's no point to replace just part B, but replace whole control arm.

Well mine is near 100k miles and still has the original control arms and all suspension parts.  So the lower (item 1) affects the steering wheel as suggested by @Humour? How can I check it pls?  Thx. 

[Humour]

16 hours ago, Tallman85 said:

Hi @Humour

When you said, lower control arms, are you referring to item 1 or 2 in the pic below? 

Regarding the hub, how can I tell if it is warped or not? 

Thx.

 

Arm A and bush B (the thrust bush) is what I changed. The other arms weren't new but looked serviceable in my case and I was stretched for cash so had to take a view. 

How to measure the disc = Runout measurements. I mentioned it already. I had to buy a gauge as my friend didn't have one. Below is a random how to... 

https://youtu.be/RdTK7Lvxflo?si=WOcblPbl0_RBC9vG

Edited December 14, 2023 by Humour

[Tallman85]

7 hours ago, Humour said:

Arm A and bush B (the thrust bush) is what I changed. The other arms weren't new but looked serviceable in my case and I was stretched for cash so had to take a view. 

How to measure the disc = Runout measurements. I mentioned it already. I had to buy a gauge as my friend didn't have one. Below is a random how to... 

https://youtu.be/RdTK7Lvxflo?si=WOcblPbl0_RBC9vG

thx @Humour and @Ray112;

I shall see what state are mine 🙂

[Tallman85]

7 hours ago, Humour said:

Arm A and bush B (the thrust bush) is what I changed. The other arms weren't new but looked serviceable in my case and I was stretched for cash so had to take a view. 

How to measure the disc = Runout measurements. I mentioned it already. I had to buy a gauge as my friend didn't have one. Below is a random how to... 

https://youtu.be/RdTK7Lvxflo?si=WOcblPbl0_RBC9vG

sorry another question; how would you test both of them on the car?  should the car knock on potholes?  or check wheel play?  etc...

[Humour]

12 hours ago, Tallman85 said:

sorry another question; how would you test both of them on the car?  should the car knock on potholes?  or check wheel play?  etc...

Unless they are falling apart, really difficult to tell. Until you take the arms off you don't see well enough inside the bush. If they are original then they were oil filled and that has left the chat a long time ago, so some residue may be visible. Either way if they are old it's worth changing as a first step to chasing the wheel wobble. The cheapest option by far if you o ly press out the old bushes and press in new, as opposed to buying whole arms, but again, that assumes your ball joints are in OK condition. 

[Ray112]

13 hours ago, Tallman85 said:

sorry another question; how would you test both of them on the car?  should the car knock on potholes?  or check wheel play?  etc...

There's supposed to be some play in the bushing B, but if it's excessive you will get wheel wobble when braking. It's not easy to tell what's acceptable and what's too much. When you have seen completely new bushing movement and worn out, then you can guess roughly if it looks too much and could be reasonable for wheel wobble. But it's nearly impossible to describe. One important thing about bushings - they must be tightened with wheels preloaded. So either car is resting on wheels or before lifting up car measurement from arch to hub center has been taken, and before tightening bolts going through bushings hub carrier is getting pushed up to get the same measurement to center. A lot of garages don't bother doing that. If bushings are tightened with wheels dropped, they are twisted all time and will fail after very short period. 

[Ray112]

14 hours ago, Tallman85 said:

thx @Humour and @Ray112;

I shall see what state are mine 🙂

About disc runout, has hub surface prepped spotless before brake discs were installed? There's always some grown on rust patches which must be scraped off, wire brush and single razor blade is your best tools for that. And a lot people has habit to put copper grease between hub and brake disc surfaces, which is totally wrong. First of all disc has to sit flush on hub to escape any runout, but grease can cause built-up in some areas and that will cause runout. And second thing - that greas will be thrown out as wheels spin, maybe not so important about front, but on rear brakes it will get on handbrake brake shoes, which won't work as should after all surface is greased.

So basically you need to inspect all suspension arms, make sure calipers are all good, slide pins moving freely, piston can be pushed back, brake pads are not jammed on caliper carriers etc. Then inspect hub surface, ideally measure runout if you have gauge. Make sure it's clean (all uneven bits getting rubbed off) and fit your brake discs. That's about it.

[Tallman85]

37 minutes ago, Ray112 said:

There's supposed to be some play in the bushing B, but if it's excessive you will get wheel wobble when braking. It's not easy to tell what's acceptable and what's too much. When you have seen completely new bushing movement and worn out, then you can guess roughly if it looks too much and could be reasonable for wheel wobble. But it's nearly impossible to describe. One important thing about bushings - they must be tightened with wheels preloaded. So either car is resting on wheels or before lifting up car measurement from arch to hub center has been taken, and before tightening bolts going through bushings hub carrier is getting pushed up to get the same measurement to center. A lot of garages don't bother doing that. If bushings are tightened with wheels dropped, they are twisted all time and will fail after very short period. 

Hi @Ray112 - yes i do get more wheel judder when i press the break pedal so it might be the bush. 

[Tallman85]

26 minutes ago, Ray112 said:

About disc runout, has hub surface prepped spotless before brake discs were installed? There's always some grown on rust patches which must be scraped off, wire brush and single razor blade is your best tools for that. And a lot people has habit to put copper grease between hub and brake disc surfaces, which is totally wrong. First of all disc has to sit flush on hub to escape any runout, but grease can cause built-up in some areas and that will cause runout. And second thing - that greas will be thrown out as wheels spin, maybe not so important about front, but on rear brakes it will get on handbrake brake shoes, which won't work as should after all surface is greased.

So basically you need to inspect all suspension arms, make sure calipers are all good, slide pins moving freely, piston can be pushed back, brake pads are not jammed on caliper carriers etc. Then inspect hub surface, ideally measure runout if you have gauge. Make sure it's clean (all uneven bits getting rubbed off) and fit your brake discs. That's about it.

Good question @Ray112 ; the answer is I don’t know as the garage specialist’ did it.  I always got scared to touch brake and suspension parts myself so i never do them my self.  I think i should learn. 

[Ray112]

17 hours ago, Tallman85 said:

Good question @Ray112 ; the answer is I don’t know as the garage specialist’ did it.  I always got scared to touch brake and suspension parts myself so i never do them my self.  I think i should learn. 

It saves you a fortune and most likely job will be done even more careful than in the garage, where time is money, so no one paying attention to small details.

Ideally you want a mate who's been into cars for some time and knows his stuff more or less. Working with him few times on your car will give you a good lesson and basic knowledge. Few my work mate's are coming to me repair their cars. They do a lot of things themselves, just want some suggestions/guidelines how to do specific things and a pair of eyes to check are they doing it right. 

Another way is reading and watching videos on internet, it's time consuming but you can learn a lot from these. 

Then of course you will need some investment in tools, but it will pay back quickly if you have interest, space and time to work on your car. I've always had an attitude about tools - if I have to pay someone to do job or I have to pay the same amount for as some tool to do myself, I will choose to buy the tool, because next time I will already have it and that means I'll save some money doing it myself.

[Tallman85]

9 minutes ago, Ray112 said:

It saves you a fortune and most likely job will be done even more careful than in the garage, where time is money, so no one paying attention to small details.

Ideally you want a mate who's been into cars for some time and knows his stuff more or less. Working with him few times on your car will give you a good lesson and basic knowledge. Few my work mate's are coming to me repair their cars. They do a lot of things themselves, just want some suggestions/guidelines how to do specific things and a pair of eyes to check are they doing it right. 

Another way is reading and watching videos on internet, it's time consuming but you can learn a lot from these. 

Then of course you will need some investment in tools, but it will pay back quickly if you have interest, space and time to work on your car. I've always had an attitude about tools - if I have to pay someone to do job or I have to pay the same amount for as some tool to do myself, I will choose to buy the tool, because next time I will already have it and that means I'll save some money doing it myself.

Yes i know what you mean.  Guidelines and guidance are very important.

This guy makes it look easy.

t

[Changy]

On 16/12/2023 at 14:48, Tallman85 said:

Yes i know what you mean.  Guidelines and guidance are very important.

It's a straightforward procedure, but I agree with @Ray112. Watch some videos and learn what is required. I didn't know how to replace the control arms, but I had guidance and support from @Gonzo @Andrew and DirtyDirty Diesel on the old forum.

I noticed an issue with my car braking hard; the wobble became noticeable as time passed. The original control arms lasted >120,000 before one failed. I took advice from others to replace all four. I took my time on the first repair and ensured I followed the correct method.

Some pointers.

Chock the rear wheels; I don't think the guy in the video did this. Safety is paramount if you are working beneath a car.

Spray some penetrating fluid on the nuts and bolts before you start in case some are stuck fast. When you finish, add some copper grease to prevent future issues.

You must split the hub carrier by removing the pinch bolt and opening the clamp. I used a cold chisel, as shown in the video. Watch out for this because the shock can hold onto the bracket as if its life depended on it. It would not let go on the passenger side, so I had to drop the strut assembly and release it on the bench. This issue was compounded by the pinch bolt being stuck solid. I used a 1-metre breaker bar, a scaffold pole and a lot of release spray to remove it. I may have a photo of it somewhere; I was so pleased when I finally got the better of it. The hub was in poor condition, so I replaced it with a second-hand one.

Check your track rod ends before you start; mine were so rusted I changed the inner and outer rods. Yes, it adds expense and may not be required, but at least you can check. There's nothing worse than reassembling it and finding the tracking cannot be adjusted, which you must do when changing the control arms.

Check the wheel bearings when you have everything removed. I learned this from @Andrew, and it is good advice. Thankfully, I had changed my bearings, so they didn't need replacing.

I found it easier to connect the arm to the subframe first and then to the hub. It is personal preference, but on one side I could not get the b@st***d to line up having connected it to the hub! It was probably a mistake on my part, but at least you can be aware of it.

The bit I hated was loading the hub because it meant lifting the car off the axle stand. I leave the stand in situ and feel happier that way.

I have done this job 6-7 times since my first attempt because a few local guys needed theirs replaced and didn't have the tools. I bought an impact wrench for this job, and it's paid for itself many times.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Changy

[Tallman85]

1 hour ago, Changy said:

It's a straightforward procedure, but I agree with @Ray112. Watch some videos and learn what is required. I didn't know how to replace the control arms, but I had guidance and support from @Gonzo @Andrew and DirtyDirty Diesel on the old forum.

I noticed an issue with my car braking hard; the wobble became noticeable as time passed. The original control arms lasted >120,000 before one failed. I took advice from others to replace all four. I took my time on the first repair and ensured I followed the correct method.

Some pointers.

Chock the rear wheels; I don't think the guy in the video did this. Safety is paramount if you are working beneath a car.

Spray some penetrating fluid on the nuts and bolts before you start in case some are stuck fast. When you finish, add some copper grease to prevent future issues.

You must split the hub carrier by removing the pinch bolt and opening the clamp. I used a cold chisel, as shown in the video. Watch out for this because the shock can hold onto the bracket as if its life depended on it. It would not let go on the passenger side, so I had to drop the strut assembly and release it on the bench. This issue was compounded by the pinch bolt being stuck solid. I used a 1-metre breaker bar, a scaffold pole and a lot of release spray to remove it. I may have a photo of it somewhere; I was so pleased when I finally got the better of it. The hub was in poor condition, so I replaced it with a second-hand one.

Check your track rod ends before you start; mine were so rusted I changed the inner and outer rods. Yes, it adds expense and may not be required, but at least you can check. There's nothing worse than reassembling it and finding the tracking cannot be adjusted, which you must do when changing the control arms.

Check the wheel bearings when you have everything removed. I learned this from @Andrew, and it is good advice. Thankfully, I had changed my bearings, so they didn't need replacing.

I found it easier to connect the arm to the subframe first and then to the hub. It is personal preference, but on one side I could not get the b@st***d to line up having connected it to the hub! It was probably a mistake on my part, but at least you can be aware of it.

The bit I hated was loading the hub because it meant lifting the car off the axle stand. I leave the stand in situ and feel happier that way.

I have done this job 6-7 times since my first attempt because a few local guys needed theirs replaced and didn't have the tools. I bought an impact wrench for this job, and it's paid for itself many times.

Thanks @Changy.  From the video, what I did not understand is that after pushing down the assembly, how do you know how much to push it up again to be in place again?  

Well, I think mine need replacing however you would not know until you remove them.  And you would not know if the bush needs replacing or also the ball joint, therefore you wouldn't know if you need a full new arm or just the bushes.  The cost of a new one is over £200 each I think from BMW.  Other reputable brands that might do the trick? 

So you also replaced the wishbones when you were changing the arm? I think you are referring to track rods?

Thinking about it, this is a time were one needs to decide whether to overhaul the suspension or replace the car as the costs will quickly go up by thousands.  My suspension never had any work on it.  I bought it with 75k miles and now it is approaching 100k miles and everything is still factory.  Rear bushes also are feeling the age as sometimes the car feels like a boat! so...i don't know.   

[Changy]

26 minutes ago, Tallman85 said:

From the video, what I did not understand is that after pushing down the assembly, how do you know how much to push it up again to be in place again?  

I had to trust @Gonzo on this aspect, as it will find the correct level and is not going anywhere. I recall he told me to go for a drive and then check it again because it should level up. There is a notch on the shock which lines up on the hub carrier. The first time, I scratched a line for height guidance and have also used tape for the same reason. 

 

I used Lemforder arms which are supposedly OEM. I did fit Meyle HD on a mate’s car and they seemed decent. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Changy

[Tallman85]

55 minutes ago, Changy said:

I had to trust @Gonzo on this aspect, as it will find the correct level and is not going anywhere. I recall he told me to go for a drive and then check it again because it should level up. There is a notch on the shock which lines up on the hub carrier. The first time, I scratched a line for height guidance and have also used tape for the same reason. 

 

I used Lemforder arms which are supposedly OEM. I did fit Meyle HD on a mate’s car and they seemed decent. 

Hi, yes Lemforder are £130 each, much better than £200 each from BMW.  At this point, I suspect that all the brake and driving wobbles at high speeds are related to this arm.

[Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Tallman85 said:

Thanks @Changy.  From the video, what I did not understand is that after pushing down the assembly, how do you know how much to push it up again to be in place again?  

Well, I think mine need replacing however you would not know until you remove them.  And you would not know if the bush needs replacing or also the ball joint, therefore you wouldn't know if you need a full new arm or just the bushes.  The cost of a new one is over £200 each I think from BMW.  Other reputable brands that might do the trick? 

So you also replaced the wishbones when you were changing the arm? I think you are referring to track rods?

Thinking about it, this is a time were one needs to decide whether to overhaul the suspension or replace the car as the costs will quickly go up by thousands.  My suspension never had any work on it.  I bought it with 75k miles and now it is approaching 100k miles and everything is still factory.  Rear bushes also are feeling the age as sometimes the car feels like a boat! so...i don't know.   

Provided the alignment pin goes through the gap in the hub where the pinch bolt will go it will bottom out in the hub carrier, then you bolt it up.

[Changy]

14 hours ago, Tallman85 said:

Thinking about it, this is a time were one needs to decide whether to overhaul the suspension or replace the car as the costs will quickly go up by thousands.  My suspension never had any work on it.  I bought it with 75k miles and now it is approaching 100k miles

I had the same dilemma, but I had my car new and had a good understanding of the condition. I decided to do the work and stick with maintaining it. 

I believe It's better the devil you know. I didn't want to get another car only to discover it had hidden issues and then developed similar suspension faults. 

[Tallman85]

6 hours ago, Changy said:

I had the same dilemma, but I had my car new and had a good understanding of the condition. I decided to do the work and stick with maintaining it. 

I believe It's better the devil you know. I didn't want to get another car only to discover it had hidden issues and then developed similar suspension faults. 

That is true, but in your case, it was an easy choice since you bought it new 🙂  I bought it 10 years old...a different story and I don't think it was maintained as it should have been in these 10 years....I spent a lot replacing parts to get it as good as possible.

[Humour]

21 hours ago, Tallman85 said:

That is true, but in your case, it was an easy choice since you bought it new 🙂  I bought it 10 years old...a different story and I don't think it was maintained as it should have been in these 10 years....I spent a lot replacing parts to get it as good as possible.

That's part for the course. You didn't pay the new car price either, so it's give and take. 

I bought mine at 14 yrs of age, and I'm convinced most who saw it as it was, would have said, too far gone, it's a scrapper and that's looking at the outward appearance only, not the mechancials.

Despite my better judgement I bought a car ready for the scrap heap from the Birmingham area of all places. It appears that there they have zero to no clue about mechanics and or maintenance. 

It took me 14 months and probably close to 2K in parts alone to get her to a usable daily condition, I'm not even taking into account the chains which still must be done a.s.a.p. to have full confidence in the mechanical condition of the car. Notwithstanding many other smaller but annoying things that need fixing in time. Moral of the story, don't buy any vehicle from Brum, ever! Or you will be a poor muppet, like me. 

I probably could have bought another in the 4-5K range which arguably could have been in much better condition, but one never knows at that age. 

Suffice it to say, financially it was a bad call on my part, but buying at the bottom of the depreciation curve when the cars are being bought by breakers for similar amounts one can't expect to get a brand new or even a good condition car. One just hopes it isnt as run down as it sometimes happens to be. 

The initial maintenance outlay may be high, but provided she holds on long enough for all the critical maintenance to get done, you will lend up with a good car in a known condition, that could drive better and be more reliable than a 5 year old equivalent at half the mileage and at a fraction of the 5 year old car's price tag. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Humour

[Ray112]

1 hour ago, Tallman85 said:

That is true, but in your case, it was an easy choice since you bought it new 🙂  I bought it 10 years old...a different story and I don't think it was maintained as it should have been in these 10 years....I spent a lot replacing parts to get it as good as possible.

At least you own it long enough to know there are no engine issues. Last thing you want is to buy car and realise engine is gone. Definitely won't be cheaper than replacing suspension parts. So I would agree with better devil you know, than getting someone else's lemon. 

[Tallman85]

1 hour ago, Ray112 said:

At least you own it long enough to know there are no engine issues. Last thing you want is to buy car and realise engine is gone. Definitely won't be cheaper than replacing suspension parts. So I would agree with better devil you know, than getting someone else's lemon. 

Yes true…i dont fancy spending a lot at the moment but at some point it needs to happen.  Our cars are getting old and probably at some point we need to get them off the roads due to whatever new regulations will come into force.  Fuel costs might hit my 530d too…but yes i think with the money that i get if i sell it i wont buy a premium car like the e61.